-What happens when you lose your cool on your child?
-How do you get along with your significant other when there is disagreement?
-Any concerns about Montessori?
These and more questions discussed with four Montessori dads:
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About Jesse McCarthy
For 20 years, Jesse McCarthy has worked with thousands of children, parents, teachers and administrators — as a principal for infants to 8th graders, an executive with a nationwide group of private schools, an elementary & junior-high teacher, and a parent-and-teacher mentor.
Jesse received his B.A. in psychology from the University of California, Los Angeles (UCLA) and his Montessori teacher's diploma for ages 2.5 to 6+ from Association Montessori Internationale (AMI), the organization founded by Dr. Maria Montessori.
Jesse has spoken on early education and child development at schools around the globe, from Midwest America to the Middle East, as well as at popular organizations in and outside of the Montessori community: from AMI/USA to Twitter. Jesse now heads MontessoriEducation.com and hosts The Montessori Education Podcast.
Transcript: Dads Talk Montessori and Parenting
Hey, everyone, Jesse McCarthy here with MontessoriEducation.com. I recently had a conversation with a few dads of some children who attend the little Montessori schoolhouse my wife and I run, and I recorded the conversation, with their approval, of course. They were, they were down for it. And here's a quick clip and then we'll hop back in after
I think Montessori in general has just, developed, I guess complexity in Kennedy's cognitive ability. It's like things she talks about are different levels than what I expect her to, you know. She's like, Daddy, what is that? And I go, that's a stop sign. And she goes, No, that's a red octagon. And I'm like, that is the right answer. You know. And... You're not wrong. Right! And it's a whole different level.
Like she's three. That's a stop sign. No, that's a, that's a red octagon. I have to constantly feel like I need to push her and tell her the truth and explain it all because she gets it, she understands different levels of things and I think she's developed that from Montessori, and just making connections. Constant connections to things in different ways.
And I just, I'm so impressed by it every single day.
So the dad you heard speaking is Pat. He has two children with his wife. So three year old Kennedy and then an infant at home. The other dad is Tony and he also has a three year old daughter here named Amaya and they, he and his wife, Alyssa have a child at home too. Oh yeah. And Pat's wife's name is Ashley.
And then there's Trishul, whose daughter actually just graduated. She finished her kindergarten year here. She's going to be attending a nearby Montessori elementary school, but Trishul has his wife, Shahira, and they've been with us for a while. Good times there. Uh, we have a tight knit community.
So what's really cool about the conversation you're going to hear is we talk about it all. We're kind of openly, you know, raw at times. So you'll hear the ups and downs from some of these dads, um, you know, losing control sometimes emotions, whether you're a dad or mom, you probably know about that. And then also just, oh, some relationship stuff just with our spouses. So that's interesting as well. Uh, so it's going to be, it's going to be fun.
Quick note for those of you who parents and teachers out there that are long time listeners. Apologies for the kind of delayed summer, a lot of fun, great summer school's back in session now, it's just been busy. So I'm getting back into it.
Happy you're here and I'm happy I'm back. So here comes the conversation. See you later.
It might be good to start out with a bad moment.
Like what was a dad experience of yours that was bad? And you're like, Oh man, this was a mess or, you know, felt guilty. You felt whatever. Um, anything stick out in your mind as bad. This was not fun for me. And that you learned from, so it's not like it's just stayed with you and just sucks. You haven't learned anything from it.
I remember there was a moment where Amaya, we were trying to get her to shower and she was playing with her toy and I forget what it was, but I took the toy, put it away.
And I brought her to the bathroom. I was super frustrated with her. And I remember Alyssa pulled me aside and she was like, how would you like it if you were in the middle of texting someone, I took your phone away and then brought you to another room? And I was like, why would you do that? And she's like, well, that's what you just did to Amaya.
She doesn't understand what's going on. And that moment, it like hit me. I mean, semi guilty, right? Like I get it. She doesn't understand. And I don't understand what's going on either being a new parent. But that's probably one of the moments that I felt really bad, right? Cause I just didn't get it. I wanted her to listen to me.
And there's a difference between obedience and respect and all these other things we're learning about. And in that moment, I fell back to a primalistic like, you're not listening to me take the toy away, put it down, drag her to the bathroom, and she's crying and screaming and instead of truly listening to her and, and just taking a moment and taking a deep breath, like, maybe she's just finishing something, and I can ask her that, and once she's finished, I can take her to the bathroom.
But in that moment, I was just so upset and angry, I was like, I'm not gonna wait, I'm not dealing with this right now. And that happens from time to time still, because she, doesn't put her seatbelt on when we get in the car. She likes to run around the car, all these other things. And now it's like taking that moment of just deep breath, like, Hey, um, it's okay.
Let her finish what she's doing. And try not to be as much in a rush.
Yeah, and that can, and that can happen at any age, right? I mean, because it's, I think Amaya is three. And how old was she at this point? Probably two. Yeah, it goes up to like 40. You can have a kid of 40 and still have these things, you know?
So yeah, you guys resonate with that? Is that something that's never happened or?
No, I resonate quite a bit with that. I thought you were going to
say, no, it's never happened. I'm like, well, I gotta go, guys.
No, I think, uh, I think the bad, you know, general theme is just, you know, Is reaction, right? Where we're human, we still have animalistic instincts.
So the fight or flight, the immediate reaction to things is, uh, is sometimes detrimental and I think one antidote that comes to mind is, um, one time I was trying to dual purpose managing Kennedy in the restroom and doing something in the kitchen. So I was like guiding her through washing your hands. And I walked away to tend to something on the stove and I hear water splashing and I know it's the floor and she has grabbed a cup. She has started to fill the cup and just decided to intentionally dump it on the floor. And I I reacted poorly. Um, and She was taken aback by it and immediately said, daddy you're scaring me and that was a huge gut punch to me um because in that moment she she didn't feel like she, she felt scared and I was the only running around.
So I'd assumed she did not feel super safe in that moment. Um, I was glad she felt comfortable enough to tell me that she was scared. But yeah, that was, that was pretty heavy. And in that moment, I, I really had to think about how I would handle it in the future and, uh, to Tony's point of finding that pause and creating that moment to think about what's going on instead of just reacting.
Cause the reaction is normally poor and it, it sets the wrong tone. And I, I. Do believe that my interactions with my daughter, Kennedy, um, the results or the outcome is normally dictated by the first few seconds of the interaction. Um, and I set the tone for that, right? So if I react poorly, she flies off the handle, gets scared, cries, doesn't want to do what I asked her to do, whatever.
But if I take that moment. Think about it, and, and give her what she needs, then things tend to go well.
You guys, I'm curious about this because this, it, it's like we know not to do certain things, right? If we sit back and go, oh yeah, we shouldn't do this. But there's these moments when it's like, it just, it's almost primal, it just comes out.
Have you been able to kind of minimize the times that happens or lessen the number of times that happens through this process? And is it kind of not just in the moment, but it's doing that work of stepping back and thinking through, like, how is it, how have you worked your way out of it?
And then Trishul, of course, if this resonates with you, maybe share a story then.
Yeah, yeah, happy to jump in on that. So I think a big part of it is it's a learning process. For many of us, it's a first time dealing with a small human, and the thing that I vividly remember is The very first day that my daughter was born where the nurse brought her into the room to be with us and actually spend time, you know with my wife and I right after the birth and Nothing really prepares you for the moment when the baby just starts crying uncontrollably And you just feel hopeless, like you, you try the basic things you maybe even I know we read about things and we went through some of the training at the hospital.
But when you're in the moment, and now you have this responsibility, and you need to make decisions that are impacting your child. You know, I think Pat brings on something quite important. And they do read off the emotion that you're putting out because that's. You know, their first form of communication that they're innately driven to sense the emotion of parents and build on it from there.
And I'm pretty sure for many of the first occurrences, they probably, my daughter probably sense fear, like, why is this adult, um, you know, uh, having a deer in the headlight space or, or, you know, kind of being frantic. And, just not being able to calm her down for the first uh period. And this went on for at least the first few weeks.
Like we, we just, well, me personally, I didn't feel equipped to know what was going on, even though they give you the checklist, you know, go through diaper feeding, um, you know, are they wet and hungry or need to be burped or tired? Right? You go through that list. But even then, there, there were cases where, oh boy, she's just not calming down, no matter what we're trying. And It, it took this insight that actually came from a nurse, at our first prenatal checkup and something that she told us really stood out to me and the feedback was, you know, our job as parents isn't always to stop the crying.
It's to love the child through the crying. Meaning, it doesn't have to be about making them stop immediately. It's about realizing that they're going through something that's uncomfortable, that they haven't experienced before, and just being there with them and supporting them through, it can make things better, a lot of difference. And I've kind of carried that point, that knowledge or that insight, well into the future, even to this day. But again, nothing prepared me for having to really cope with it, on day one.
So what I'm curious what you're saying, connected with everything else is that like as an animal or as our basic things, we just go on what we learned ourselves or what we grew up with. And then when you have kids, it's like, oh, you're just expected to just do your thing with a kid.
It's like, as you said, Trishul, like, how would I know? I mean, me, I've been doing this for 20 years. I have some knowledge, but like, if you have no or relatively little experience with a child, then none of us had experience with our own children. So how would we know? So I just think of it as an iterative process.
So in terms of the practicality of getting "better", at being a dad or being a parent, you know, you got some insight early on, Trishul. Tony, Pat, like with the stories you told what's been effective in kind of guarding against that just gut reaction.
I, I, honestly, it's, it's been two timely books, um, that my wife and I have been reading one is clear thinking by Shane Parish and the other is good inside by Dr. Becky Kennedy. Um, and clear thinking is all about decision making and thinking through problems as a, as a human and a business professional. Um, and what I've learned from that book is, um, that we are susceptible to our defaults because of our ego or social defaults or whatever it may be. So that, that book has given me some tools to try to create that pause that I spoke about earlier.
Think about, you know, what my child is trying to do. Um, and then make the best decision based off the, the information that I've gathered in those brief moments. Um, with good inside and Dr. Becky Kennedy, uh, the thing, the main point that resonated with me is what she calls MGI or, um, the most generous interpretation.
So we should always take the most generous interpretation of what our child is doing and never assume that there is malintent or they're doing something nefarious or whatever it may be. So, um, if I am thinking about those two things, I seem to handle the situation appropriately and I can, um, you know, be there for her and do my job as a parent to kind of be the, the guardrails of her emotions right now, um, and her actions and just let her be safe in her space and, you know, grow and develop emotionally.
One of the
other side, you know,
the most generous intent is kind of like, um, I don't know if you guys know Haim Gnott, but this idea of treat your child, like a visitor. So like somebody who's coming over, you're a guest at your house. It's so crazy how different, particularly like older, once you get into older children, it's like, get your room clean.
Like, it's just these reactions that are bizarre given, like if a guest was there, there's no way you'd be talking to him like that. I think it's similar to that MGI point, Pat. So, um, Tony, what about you?
I'm currently taking notes. Um, Treat your child like a guest/visitor. So every year, and this is only two years in a row, so talk about consistency.
I have this notes page on my iPhone that it's like 2023 notes and then 2024 notes. It's just things that I've read and found useful or things that I want to like just keep track of. So I want to write that down because that's such a great way, to think about it, because to be honest, I don't know what I found.
I think just, I've been lucky enough to have Alyssa that will call me out from time to time. And then just really just taking a break and trying to see it from someone else's point of view, which is easier said than done, because something I work on with people I work with is like, Hey, uh, it's called the backseat driver.
So someone who has, uh, food challenges, they may think that, uh, or emotional eating, I call it the backseat driver, which is they're driving the car. I'm the person next to them. And then they have someone in the backseat who I can't see or hear. It's only them. And we're driving down this road since we're all here in Florida.
We're driving in New York. That backseat driver saying, Hey, pull over. Hey, pull over. Eventually it gets like on a megaphone. It's like, Hey, pull over. And the person pulled over, but I can't hear them. Right. And that's the reaction of the person versus being the navigator in that car. Right? Like I'm just giving the direction to that person.
So in that situation is like, I'm just trying to give direction to Amaya. There's some sort of backseat driver that's talking to her and vice versa. She's just trying to give me direction that she's doing something. And I have a backseat driver saying, no, you got to put her in the shower now, because now you're not going to go to sleep on time.
Then you're not going to be able to go to the gym in the morning. Then you'd be super upset. Then your whole day's ruined and you still have to work. And all these other things are going to be happening. So it's this backseat driver that she's never going to see, that's always in my head, and that's something I work on with the people that I work with, and I try to apply it to myself as best possible, which is just trying to name that driver so I humanize it so I know that it's someone versus just letting it be this phantom thought in my head, and then taking that and having a little bit of control over it.
Right? So naming that emotion, I think, is something that's been helpful even though I don't have like a true guided plan. I have noticed that since having that call out, and Alyssa continually calling me out on things of that nature, helps me take that deep breath and take a step back and think of it from a different perspective.
And I think one of the most recent ones, she went to school wearing an Elsa dress. And for me, I was like, what? How could she be leaving the house wearing an Elsa dress? She's going to school. I want her to look well and not cause distraction. And this is like, who cares? Like, who is this really affecting?
And I was like, well, what if it affects other people? She's like, Amaya's happy. Wearing an Elsa dress is not going to change anyone's attitude or anything about her. It's just clothing. And I was like, Okay, fair enough because even my mom was there and she was making comments about her wearing an Elsa dress to school but it's like the the world's smallest thing that no one cares about and no one even notices, and she's just gonna be happy it's like why fight her over changing her clothes when it's just going to school and in my head I'm like well I know it's gonna be itchy she's gonna want to take it off i don't know if she has a change of clothes and sometimes you just have to let her go down that path.
So to answer your question I think it's just having someone that helps, that can call you out, to having a good partner which can be difficult especially now with so many people that are single parents. Um, but having someone that can help call you out and if not having a almost self regulation or that self control of a way to make yourself aware.
So do you guys, this might be a personal question, but it's always, you know, you're, we're married, so we have another human being that we're with, and no matter how great the relationship you always got, you're dealing with two different people. So how has that been? Have you found that it's tough because, you know, you have your ways.
I mean, it almost sounds like Tony, you're just, it sounds almost beautiful. You're like, Oh, Alyssa, this is, this is great insight. And that, you know, in the moment, is that still like, there's a backseat driver? Like, what is she, what is this she talking about? Like, I'm, you know, or, okay. So that, yeah. Because a lot of this is really dealing with our own stuff.
It's not even about the kid. So I don't know have you guys recognized that element of it, of having children.
Yeah, I would say, certainly, it's, it's one of those things where, you get one time through and you're always learning along the way. And boy, you could use that knowledge that you learned at age three at age, you know, when the daughter was first born, but you don't get it until age three and now your time is up, at least that's your only child, which is in our case.
So it's always a learning process. And the tricky part is. You have a sample size of one, and that one sample is a different person every day. Like, you know, they evolve so quickly that the problem you're trying to solve today might not be for the human that you're gonna use it on tomorrow. So it's, it does have to end up being just a constant kind of chasing the next thing, but being proactive, but not being too proactive.
It's always about a balance of many competing concerns. And I think that also goes back to, at some point you just have to try your best, realizing there are going to be mistakes. Like, you know, things aren't going to go as well as you would like. But often, if that's the best you can do, that's the best you can do with imperfect information, knowledge, and understanding.
And are you guys, do you think of, I mean, you and Shahirah just seem like so supportive of each other, do you feel that you're on the same page? Were you always on the same page? Was there, cause a lot of parents are going to be listening to this, there's just this, a lot of the battles, often it's moms who are the ones finding Montessori schools or finding care.
Often it's moms that are pushing more of a, kind of a, you know, a freedom within limits approach versus like, You gotta do this! So did you find that you're on the same page with Shahirah, Trishul, and then, you know, if you guys want to jump on the other ones, or, or did you have conflict along the way?
Yeah, well, there's so many things that it takes to raise a child. So I think it's impossible to agree on everything. One of the big struggles early on was the night time training. And you know, coming up with some sort of consistent sleep pattern and getting it to a point where she was sleeping through the night. And we did have different opinions because my wife came from an understanding of if Rheya is crying, she wanted to go immediately to her.
And I was like, you know, give her some time to calm down. And that was tricky. It's hard for, a mother in general, right, to hear a baby crying and not immediately respond to it, and that, you know, there's a maternal instinct where if that noise comes out, attention, you know, jolts in that direction. And, um, the tricky part is I did kind of notice with practice that my daughter could calm herself down if she was given more of the opportunity.
But if we went to her too quickly, she just kind of got more riled up out of everything because then she would kind of outsource her inability to calm down to somebody else, who couldn't really fully understand what's going on, especially in the middle of the night. So it was an early struggle and we tried many things.
We ended up landing on, um, another resource for nighttime sleep training, where it involves a little bit of waiting and a little bit of window before the going to. And it was also one of those things where it ended up working, but then the child always evolves or things get messed up like you have a late night out or a weekend at grandma's and then everything resets or teething.
So, it certainly wasn't a thing where we found a solution, we worked, and, you know, life was all green and rosy from that point on, just because there's just too many parameters involved in just the child's development when you try to layer in something with, um, a structured regimen to, you know, train a child to sleep through the night.
Yeah. And I mean, sleep is, is like classic challenge, no matter who you are. Um, but instead of, instead of trying to find out what is the answer to sleep right now, cause that'd be a a whole ’nother episode. So forth. Do you like Tony and Pat, are there any instances like Trishul was raising sleep? And that is a, that's a pretty normal conflict generally between men and women or husbands and wives, but it can be different in different cases.
But generally, was there anything else that stuck out like that, that you guys had conflict, uh, with the significant other?
I so I think any conflict that has come between Ashley and I, and I'd say we're always on the same page. It's just never at the same time. She is always chapters ahead of me.
So any conflict is where I have not yet learned how to handle that situation appropriately. And there is a look I get that I know, uh, that I'm not doing it appropriately. Um, and I think Ashley and I, I just have an understanding of my wife that she is going to give it maximum effort, um, in terms of gathering information and finding the right course of action and path for how to handle things.
So when she comes to me and says, Hey, you're doing this wrong. And here's why, um, I, I tend to just default to believe her and not really push, push back.
Um, I just tend to use it as like a, uh, point of education. There are times when I'm just mad and I don't want to hear it. And in that moment, my backseat driver is, is mouthing off to my wife, but later she, we will revisit and I will be like, okay, I see your point.
This is where I was. I, you know, I escalated or whatever, but you're right, I should, I should probably handle that way. And I, I come around, but she just, she, she inhales information and she wants to do right by our children. So she is going to find the right path. So I tend to just trust her and we were lucky, we actually had a person in our life who, uh, dated my father in law for a while. She was a principal at a Montessori school. Uh, and I asked what it was. And as you know, in my mid twenties, I was like, well, it doesn't sound like you really learn anything because there was no talk about traditional education, so she schooled me, uh, pretty quickly on, on what it was.
So Ashley and I have always kind of had that in the back of our mind. So when it came time for, for where Kennedy was going to go to school, we knew that it was probably going to be Montessori and we were in agreement on that from, from day one.
That's cool. So I got it before we go into, you know, how amazing Montessori is.
Wonderful. I'm curious, Pat, because it sounds so beautiful. And I could see Ashley just being so insightful in so many ways. Are you telling me there has never been a moment where Ashley said something, and you're like, You know what, I'm not even angry, I just don't think that's true. Is there ever a case, is there anything that jumps out?
Oh boy, this is recorded. It's hard because... You better watch your words.
No, I mean, I'm going to be honest, she, she comes with the sources, right? She comes armed with information and I just have nothing to come back with except like being a smart ass, you know, like, you know what I mean? Like I, so I have nothing.
So I just, okay, babe. And then she gives me her sources. It's normally from a doctor, a child development expert, and I read it and or see it and I'm like Okay, I'm going to, I'm going to change how I do things,
Alright, so you're not a pushover. You get, you want some evidence that you want to see some.
Oh, I need, if, if, if there, I am, I believe in the physical world around us and science and math.
And, uh, if there is some science backed evidence on, on that, I will probably trust it every time.
The power of data, yeah.
Nice. Tony, is that your same experience, just Alyssa's got..
This is being recorded.
So I will only say
Yeah, let's not put you on the spot, Tony. Let's get to a different subject. You know.
Seasons, man. That's what I can tell you, at least in our relationship, there are seasons of our relationship where we're crushing it as parents. We're crushing it as a couple. I feel like we're doing great. Then there's other seasons where it's just like, We are so out of tune.
We don't even know what's going on with each other and what we're doing. That's just me personally, where, I mean, it's happened more recently as you guys know, Amaya was in the hospital for a month and it was just go time where it's just like, I was telling her you need to be with our son because she was breastfeeding and I need to be in the hospital.
I wasn't working. She wasn't working. Just a lot going on at that time emotionally for us. So I didn't even listen to the backseat driver. Just like, how do we get our kid better rival, right? Survival survival mode. That's absolutely it and even trying to get through sleep with the kids and all these other things that came with all of that so I would say it's just the seasons where we talk with each other. We allow it to happen and discuss and one big factor that plays a role in our lives is that we live with my mom. And that's her mother in law and it's just such a different culture coming that I come from a Hispanic background.
She comes from an American background One big thing we just spoke about recently I go in my mom's room, the kids go in, um, my mom's room and in my culture, it's like, it doesn't matter.
Just go in and out. Who cares, like, what's going on in the parents room? In her culture, that, how she was brought up was like, never going in the parents' room. So, we have talks about that, where, because of the different cultures, I mean, another second point was Christmas. Oh, we're going to Christmas and you're going to say Santa came 20 times in the Dominican Republic.
I'm like, who cares? She's like, no, it has to be on Christmas day and all these things. So sometimes it's so small, it's like Christmas day and other times it could be just, how is your grandparents treating Amaya, how is your parents treating Amaya and Little Tony and how they treat them differently, all those things.
So I would say we try to meet each other, halfway, and understand what's going on, and also bring our concept of where we're coming from and what that background is. One thing we've been trying to do better at is being clear. And what that means is try to be short and concise with what the point is and not try to beat around the bush. Just really be like, here's what we want. Here's how we want to do it. Why do we want to do it this way? Think about it and let's talk about it.
And one thing we've decided is towards the end of the day, we do not make decisions on anything because we're just so burnt out. We have decision fatigue. We even had a conversation last night and the night before, like, we're in bed, and it was just like, she got emotional, she's like, let's just do this tomorrow. And I wasn't emotional at all about it. I don't even remember what it was. But it struck a chord with her. And it was like, let's talk about tomorrow. So knowing where our limits, boundaries are, when we're having conversations, whether it's about the kids, each other or anything, I think it's important to remind ourselves, even though in the moment, like, we just want to get it done, but we just want to finish it.
So again, I think it's like seasons, understanding each other and clarity. There's just so much that goes into it that I can't give a direct answer of, like, we know everything. We know how to react. And this is the consistency. This is just for us personally. It's like the seasons. It's good. Sometimes we're doing really great.
And this last month I was traveling for work. I got sick. We traveled. She had to travel and it was just a whirlwind of just be a parent. See you later. I don't have time to do the transition. You got to do your best.
Yeah, well, I mean, I didn't want to just put everyone on the spot and thinking of just relationships.
Again, that's the nature of relationships to have conflict at times. Um, that's such a good little note: why, why are we having like big, serious conversations in bed at the end of like, we just went through a whole day, you know, so I like that.
That's cool.
I can, I can add to that. Um, I know for a fact that, many, founders of major tech companies refuse to make decisions after a certain point in time of the day because of decision fatigue. And it's the reason why Mark Zuckerberg wears the same thing every day. And why those guys just cut out so much of the monotonous decision making so they can focus on real problems.
Um, so I, I definitely agree with that, when you are burnt out and your mind is racing from everything, you, you need to reset so you can think clearly about things.
Yeah. So one of the interesting things, given that we're, you know, parents and talking about kids is that we, I mean, if, if we're attempting to do this well, we can introspect and we can kind of look in: How am I, what am I thinking about this?
And in terms of relationship elements, we can say, something like, Hey, what, what do you think I just said? Or let let's chat about, so we can understand one another instead of going off at the other person, like, Oh, I don't agree with you. It's like, well, what did I just say? You know, not in a mean way, but let's repeat, you almost repeat back, you know, what you think, but with children, particularly children, like five and under, they don't fully understand.
At least Trishul, you know, she's, she's getting there. Yeah. Cause she Rheya is at the point where she almost could probably describe to you what's going on inside, but it's still children at a certain age, they don't, they don't know, like you ask them the why questions and there's something behind it that they might not know.
So how have you, particularly if you're kind of like the rational type, you want to understand why did you do that? How have you dealt with the fact that they might not have an answer? They just did it. Like, how have you dealt with that as parents?
I think a part of it is early on the child has these emotions, but they can't express it like they feel anger, fear, frustration, nervousness, and all of that. But the communication between that and the actual words is lacking. And part of what we've done early on is. We've focused on feelings to a large degree, expressing them.
Even, you know, when we're communicating, you know, between my wife and I, the child does pick it up. You know, I'm feeling nervous today. I'm feeling frustrated today. And we have these types of discussions, you know, with my daughter, like, how did that make you feel? Did that make you feel this way or that way?
Very early on, you know, I remember, um, one of the earlier material books that we bought for her was just a flipbook with different smiley faces, but with different emotions on each. And just having her understand there's all these different feelings and they're okay. Right? They're all okay to have at different time periods. It's not something meant to be denied but it's meant to be validated.
So, you know, we understand you're feeling frustrated. Are you frustrated? Or, you know, what's going through your, your body emotionally? Does it feel jumpy? You know, things like that. And we've been able to do that pretty young with Rheya, you know, even though it might be, um, kind of off base, her responses, it's just grown over time with practice to the point where it does feel like she has, a more grounded understanding of the internal emotions that are going on inside of her.
So you were almost aware, obviously, that she's feeling something, but obviously she can't put it into words. So why not aid her in understanding what she's feeling, or giving a name to it at the least, from an early age?
Yeah, and you know, hoping that skill matures over time and nurturing it, even if it's early on, and it just may not even make sense for like a two year old, but it's still a worthwhile exercise just for the sake of doing it.
Pat, Tony, anything come to mind?
What comes to me is that what we've been teaching Amaya is something that we've been working on personally, and it's just, if you're going through an emotion, take a deep breath. And the reason I can say that it's been working with Amaya, or at least I feel like it is, is because when I'm, uh, Alyssa or myself get emotional, Amaya tells us, Take a deep breath.
Uh, like she calls us out on the things we're, we're teaching her. So I thoroughly enjoy that because that means she's knowing her emotions and she's understanding our emotions and she can tell when we're getting emotional. And she's like, Papa, take a deep breath. And I'm like,
Yeah.
Oh, you're right. Let me just take a deep breath and see what's going on.
So that even goes back to that first question you're asking, like how we're dealing with all this. It's just like sometimes the things that we're preaching, is it actually being practiced by ourselves? Or I mean, something similar, I guess, talking about what you're saying, like we're just trying to fix or what we learned from our past, that's how we do it.
So for me, it's just that understanding emotions has just been her reflecting it upon us. Yeah.
I think for, Ashley and I, we, we've agreed that in those moments it's our job to Kind of be more of a warm blanket to her, and just be security and let her emote, let her have her feelings, let her, uh, work through it and just be there to let her know that she's safe, um, and loved and everything's going to be fine and let her calm down.
And then we go back and later when she's calm, we, we revisit it and that's when we poke and prod. Uh, and try to figure out how she was feeling or what triggered the event or, uh, what may be going on. Um, and she seems to be more open to, to discussing it at that point and can think a little clearly, but knowing that she's not going to open up every single time, and we've, we've accepted that, that we're not going to get a good answer every time.
Um, and when that happens we find ourselves kind of leading her, uh, and And I both tend to call each other out to not try to lead her because Kennedy will just say, Yes. Like are you are you mad because of this? Yeah You know, well stop leading her let her just let her answer and let's not take her auto yeses as truth.
Yeah, and I asked that to you because I'm assuming I know kind of all three of you. We've gotten to know each other, and we're all somewhat analytical like we're trying to figure things out, you know that type of individual and when I work with older kids, fourth through eighth grade, we had those conversations.
We're having dialogues about like, well, what happened here? And let's go through it. And I brought that down. I was pushing it down when I went to the younger kids. Cause I thought, Oh, you know, and then, you know, we could just figure this out. And, you know, the old, I'm going to solve this problem kind of thing.
And with that younger than five, it tends to be that they, a lot of times they don't know. Um, but I liked, I like what you guys are getting, you're hitting on the emotional element where, you It doesn't matter if they don't know, you can see it. You know, if a child's bawling, you can see that they're sad or they're hurt.
We don't need to dig deeper into that and we can aid them in naming it or understanding it. So I like what you guys are raising.
Um, to maybe switch over to Montessori itself. I know you guys have a very specific experience cause it's with La Casa, our Montessori schoolhouse, but trying to broaden out to Montessori.
How has that been with you? Like has there been anything new or different or, even if it's an anecdote, whatever, that's jumped out that, Oh man, this Montessori is different and it's been helpful. It's been weird. It's been whatever comes to mind with Montessori and your experience.
Um, I, I um, go for it. Go ahead. No, no, please go.
I was going to say, Jesse, I remember, I don't think you shared this at La Casa, but maybe you did. I feel like it was even, um, in a previous life and another school, but, um, there was a video of a baby reaching for a toy.
Oh, yeah. Ruby reaches for a toy, the six month old.
Yeah, the Ruby, the six month old, she's lying on a mat and there's a toy right in front of her and she was just struggling to get it. It was just within her grasp, right? And she just does this for minutes at a time. And then of course, the innate urge for a parent is to push it closer or just hand it to her.
Right. And the kind of moral of the story is... Ruby wasn't really looking for help. She was exploring her environment and reaching for it on her own. And it looked like she was struggling, but it didn't look like she was unhappy about it. If you, you know, just observe her going through the motions, meaning, you know, just because there's struggle doesn't mean it's bad, right?
It just because there's suffering and, some sort of strife, it doesn't mean you immediately have to jump in. And I, I think that that was something that kind of clicked in my mind that I really didn't, um, internalize up until that point, and now it makes complete sense to me, you know, as it evolved over the years, the notion that, um, I'm probably going to butcher this, but I think it's like a quote from Maria Montessori, um, don't help a child with something that they feel they can do on their own, right?
That they can. You probably "Never help
a child with a task that they feel that they can succeed." Exactly. Yeah, it's not, it's, it's an interesting quote because it's, I can't find the exact source, but it's very good. So I
think it was mine when you first said this to us, but yeah, yes, I think it does sum it up very clearly because kids are very capable.
But we just have this urge to want to jump in. And often it's standing back that leads to the most development. The not helping that leads to the most, most growth.
Yeah. And even that standing back, it's helping. I just, there's a, there's another quote that, um, "The child is working as if I didn't exist."
Like that's when the interest in it is so weird as a parent, it's kind of weird because you want to be like, Oh, I want one on one. I want the teacher always active teaching them, you know, at least that was me when I first came into teaching. Um, and Montessori was like, You can be proudest of all as a teacher or as a parent, if the child is working as if I didn't exist. That's, but it's tough. Cause that's like that feeling like, Oh, I'm not a part of this. You know. But Trishul, you said you set the environment, so in a way you are aiding, but you're not on top of the child saying you got to do this or that, you know,
it's interesting because it really made me think about what is the goal of myself as a parent to my daughter, like, what do I want her to become and achieve in her life?
And. I think if I really, now that I've really thought about it, it's for her to be independent. If she can be an independent human and be able to control her own emotions and her own destiny and plan her own future, well then my job is done. Meaning, you know, my job as a parent is to make myself obsolete and let her take over and be her own individual.
You guys agree with Trishul? You want to push back and be like, Trishul, that's, that's horrible. No,
I don't. Yeah, go Pat.
I mean, Montessori is, right, it's about independence and the whole goal of raising a child is creating a functioning adult. And Montessori seems to be the foundation of that. Um, and we're, we're seeing that every day with Kennedy because she, she was a COVID baby and she did not have a whole lot of interaction for a long time.
Um, and we saw it. She started speaking a little late. Um and we, we were just kind of concerned with her ability to socially interact with others. And once joining La Casa, um, and Montessori and, and developing that independence, uh, she has just taken off and, you know, Uh, the, the anecdote you gave in a previous podcast episode about her, uh, and the plant, um, that just blew my wife me and my wife away.
And, you know, she does stuff like that at home and she will just go and play and, uh, use the restroom on her own and do things on her own. And it's awesome to see. And it's, it's all because of the method.
And for those that, you know, I don't know if you guys heard that episode, but just Kennedy, she came one day and we had gotten a plant over the weekend and she just went over there and started, you know, taking care of it, putting water in.
Nobody said, "Oh, take care of that plant." But she just did it. And I think that's the part, I mean, Alessandra, my wife is amazing, but it's part of this environment that's been created where, they can be independent. Um, and Pat, it's wild you saying, cause even this is such a good example of like our parent fears.
Like you had this feel like, Oh, she's, she talked late and what's wild to just for everybody listening and you guys like Kennedy. Um, I was just talking to her yesterday and Alessandra was like, talk to her about some countries in Europe.
So I went out there and sat with the map of Europe. And it's got the little puzzle pieces. I was like, Oh, and what is this one? And she's like, Oh, that's such and such. And she's like, This one is Denmark. And then I was asking Alessandra later, I was like, so has she gone through this map yet?
And she's like, man I only did it once. And so she's got all these names down, but as parents, and I want to emphasize this, as I know people listening, we get fear because they're all like, here's what you're supposed to hit this standard by 2. 2 years old. And it's just so much of it is just bogus. It's nonsense. It's ignorance. Um, now, of course, there are certain things where you want to be on the lookout, like that makes sense. But this is just such a great case where we've got fear. Again, it's that primal stuff where we don't have experience with children. And we're in this for the long range, rather than this for like, oh, I've got to make sure by 1.5, they're doing their proper physicality, like, Okay. It's crazy. So I appreciate that you even raising that, Pat, about her not "speaking", you know, on time or whatnot.
Yeah. And I honestly feel kind of, you know, looking back, it is, it is foolish, right? It's every child is different. Every situation is different and they just need the right environment to, to develop.
Anyone else want to add anything on this? I agree with it all. Nice Tony. Um, is there anything that, that comes to you with Montessori as such, where it's like, you know, I mean, are they really going to learn enough or, you know, is this maybe too community based?
Anything that pops out, that's a, that's a fear or concern or anything?
I have, I have one, um, you know, Montessori it's, It started so long ago, you know, and the world has changed so much and we're, we're so technology based and information based and STEM and computer science and now AI and, um, just the way the world is going.
So is, is Montessori keeping up with the way the world is changing around us? And is the method going to kind of deviate from. Where we go as a human race, you know, cause it's like, I guess I could just question, if I want my child to follow a quantitative STEM background, how do I transition from Montessori to that?
And is, is there a transition? Cause there doesn't seem to be a lot of focus on numbers or binary things or, or those sorts of technical sciences. So, um, that that's kind of, I guess a pseudo concern. I guess, I guess that's the only one that I would, I would really raise.
Yeah. And this comes up and I think it's a great question, just as anecdotally, let me just put two things out there real quick. So I don't know if you guys are all familiar or know, but so Jeff Bezos was a Montessori child. Um, Um, a lot of he and he's building Montessori schools. So this is a guy that obviously in the internet age, like he's, this is, this is as big as you get.
Um, and then both yeah Right. You guys know that guy? He's transitioned to some other things. He's out partying now, but um, both Google founders are also Montessori children. And I'm raising them not to be like, Oh, look at these guys. But literally Bezos is building Montessori schools. So he thinks it had an impact.
And then the Google founders say it had an impact on who they are today. And these are as tech, basically as tech as you get are relatively tech guys, you can imagine, but it's anecdotal. No matter what The AI type stuff and the future, one interesting thing about Maria Montessori herself. This woman was so ahead of her time. She was always trying to look at things scientifically. If you read her old books, the amount of observation she did, she looked at children, like we should be looking at like a scientist. It's almost off putting to some parents cause it's too kind of methodical, like she's really studying children.
And of course, independence was about as up there as you get. But the first thing was adaptability. How are we going to aid children to adapt to their environment and then adapt the environment to what we want? You know, as human beings. So I think if you're really going with Maria Montessori, you're going to start looking into this and say, okay, so how, when can we start integrating some of this stuff?
When is it age appropriate, developmentally? And I would say to your concern, Pat, if I'm just being direct as children get older, I don't think a lot of people in Montessori have really done the work that's necessary to integrate, what's happening.
So now with three to six and you're younger, man, there's so much in the world to get to know that's just out there in the world that, you can pick up a lot of the tech stuff as you get going, if you miss out on the real world stuff early on, you're in a real detriment. But somebody needs to be jumping into that range, I'm talking six plus and definitely nine plus, and integrating some of what's been learned, in tech, and I don't want to say future proofing because we can't future proof, but getting them ready for at least where we're at today. So I think it's a concern as the kids are older, I would say.
Right? And it's a struggle, because like my, my house is full of devices and tablets and, you know, and I feel like if I, I shield her from that, I, she's not going to be advanced in those technologies. And, you know, I know there's limitations and we do limit and we should limit it, but I don't want to just not expose her to those things and to just stick strictly to, you know, old school Montessori methods, you know?
Yeah. And that's why I would say is I think Montessori is something that, again, it's about adapting to the world around you and then adapting the world to us, and anyone who's kind of goes, you know, anti tech as such. I mean, they've got a problem and that is not really, Montessori, in my view.
Ah, yeah, what I'm, what I'm gathering from what you're saying is that it Montessori will always apply because of its flexibility.
Yeah,
you know,
yeah, that's an approach will
always be
relevant. And as Trishul was raising, a lot of this is about observing children. I think there's an episode on fantasy that I did, but Montessori does say some things about at the youngest ages that you want to start with reality first.
So if you put a child in front of a screen and they're looking at fantastic creatures jumping out at them, witches and fairies and everything, it could be confusing. Why not just put them outside with like some real animals and real plants. So that's kind of, that is a fundamental Montessori view. But that's a little bit of a tangent.
So, anybody else have some major or minor concerns about Montessori?
I think it aligns with the notion that Pat was putting forward where, it's a little trite to say this, but it feels like things are different now. Yeah. It just feels that way. Yeah, I know. Very cliché, but Oh boy, it feels like things are different now.
Yeah.
And it's just one of those things where things aren't moving so quickly, and it's hard to say what will be valued in a decade or two from now, from an education standpoint. I know, for example, you know, when I was growing up, we had a Engineering, I had an engineering background, so a lot of math and STEM stuff.
And a large part of it was you just got to learn this stuff, which seems boring, but you got to do it, you know, to go to the next level. And it wasn't creative or it wasn't, um, personally driven because I had a strong interest in learning those specific things. I had a strong interest in the end goal and that's what kept me going through those check boxes.
And the tricky thing now is, even if you go through all those check boxes, will that career that you had an ambition for, you know, as a freshman at university even exist when you graduate? And how do you deal with that? You just spent your previous, you know, 18 years doing some stuff, spent four years of university learning all of these things.
So you have a specialized degree in this field and you graduate and whoops, no, that, that field doesn't exist anymore.
Yeah. And I think that's what you're raising is great and connected with that, think about even like, cause I heard this when I must've been like 15 years ago, it's like, Oh, we got to teach the kids to code because then they're going to, you know, if they don't know how to code, then they're not going to get any jobs.
And it's like today. You know, how much time you're going to spend on coding given the computer is going to be doing. So it's like, we cannot literally future proof children. The only way I think we can do this is the independence. And this is Montessori's view. And then aiding them in that when they're gaining that independence, they're gaining self confidence.
So when you have a strong sense of self, man, like any of us here, we all have jobs that we're, we're really stoked on, but what happens if tomorrow, like that job's gone, we're going to have to adapt. And we got to have the confidence to say, Oh, we can do it. You know, and I think that's at a core level, that's what Montessori is offering.
It's not saying, Hey, we're going to give your kid every single skill, that's possible 20 years from now that they're going to need. It's the core skills and the core confidence that, Oh, you can handle this. You can handle this. Um
Oh, sorry. I was just going to add, if I had to break it down, it would be the notion of not really trying to teach knowledge and facts, but really just teaching a child how to learn for themselves, right? Teaching, um, uh, fishermen how to fish, right? Instead of I messed that up instead of giving them
fish.
But I think that's, that's huge because I think today in the culture, it's very popular to kind of... we everybody wants us, there is this line, everybody wants to save the world.
Right. But if you can't do basic stuff in life on your own, like, and this is a problem, interestingly enough, it's happening with richer families because they're giving their kids everything, they're having a nanny do everything and they're stifling their own kids. So here, the idea is to go back to the basics.
Like, and you guys know with your kids, they love to do what we do as adults. So help them to do the basic stuff. And then you build on it. Um, but I do like, it's funny, we're talking about stuff that's kind of confidence, independence, but it comes through learning real stuff, like, you know, we're just talking about geography, like these kids are learning all the countries in the world. Trishul, like in terms of reading, Rheya is like just going nuts with reading.
There's a lot of content here too. So it's just a good mixture of things in my view.
But I think it's a, I think it's a real concern as the kids get older with the idea of like, are they learning about tech? Are they learning about the world of tech today? Um, so...
So what you're saying, Jesse is actually resonating with me in the opposite direction because as a, as a millennial who graduated during the financial crisis as a finance major, and then couldn't find work, went into sports, and then telco, and then now find myself in IT.
Uh, my major in education did not really matter. I, what I needed was life skills to navigate tough job markets and networking and the world around me of adulthood. And you know what, what you're talking about with Montessori education really feeds into that. And that's maybe a skill set I, I lacked as a child because I didn't go through Montessori.
You know, I wasn't prepared for that. And it took me longer than expected to, to get on my feet through that period. You know? So I think there's something to that.
Can't really sum it up better than that, right? Like, we've all had different conversations about AI and technology at different points in time. And it's just how, how are kids going to adapt to this? What is this new world? How is this going to change education?
How is this going to change jobs? No one has the answer. Just how can we best set them up for success?
Yeah. And I got to tell you guys being in Montessori and being in, cause I lived in San Francisco for, I don't know, maybe four or five months. And I know a lot of tech people, so high, high level tech people and a lot of very, very smart tech people, because they're smart in tech, they think, well, I know everything. So I'm going to start teaching children, and they've created teaching programs. And then where are those, you know, because tech is their field and the tech is the future. Children are online playing games. They're motivated by game theory.
They cannot do anything when they get off the computer, some of these kids are just a mess, but they have, I mean, they have top of the line computers, iPads, all the tech stuff you'd want, but they never got the skills of like, well, what happens when I have a physical conflict with a friend in the class? I run into him.
What do I do? You know, there's just, Oh, can they even take care of themselves? Like, you know, the Kennedy and the plant and Tony, I've got a video for you today. Oh my gosh. It's Amaya taking care of a plant. It's like almost 15 minutes long. It's so, it's so awesome. But the idea that, We can take care of our environment?
We can take care, we can help a friend out? Whereas everything's online and, and everything else taken care of for her. Oh, don't worry about that. That the nanny's got it, or the cleaner's taking care of that. It's like, dude, if you haven't, if you haven't gotten those basic skills, you're not going to feel confident that you can do things in the world.
Um, so anyway, sum that up tech is important, but. That we don't know what's going to happen long long range, uh when our kids are 20, 30 years old. So...
All right I know I got you guys over for a little bit. Any jumping off things that you want to throw out there to the world?
Tony's like no, I got I got kids to take care of I gotta get out of here
I I think it's about to knock on the door, "Get out here! Dinner's ready, Tony. What are you doing? Get off your friend's podcast. What do you think this is? Time for games?"
I was going to throw out just an anecdote on there, just kind of giving me some assurance that, I've had plenty of assurance, but just one extra note of assurance that things are going in the right direction.
I remember, uh I was preparing dinner one evening and Rheya, I asked her if she wanted to help me. She's like, no, I want to go play and do something else. And then she comes to me while I'm cooking. And she says, you know, can you make me a paper airplane? Like how I made her last week. And I said, well, you know, I'm a bit busy now.
You can help me and maybe we can do it later. And she said, well, maybe I'll try it on my own. And, you know, she tried and struggled with it. And then eventually she was like, this isn't working. So I, then she's like, what can I do? I'm like, well, you can ask Google or you can look around. And she ended up going on YouTube and searching for airplane videos and instructions on how to make airplanes. And you know the first video she tried it just didn't work out It was too complicated, but she tried a few others and then you know by the time the meal is ready, I just see airplanes like getting thrown across the room.
So it's, it's not like a real life skill, but what she portrayed to me is if she has an interest in something, she can now go off and figure it out. Yeah. And use her own intuition to figure out how to accomplish it.
That's awesome.
I think Montessori in general has just, developed, I guess, complexity, in Kennedy's cognitive ability. It's like things she talks about are different levels than what I expect her to, you know, she's like, Daddy, what is that? And I go, that's a stop sign. And she goes, No, that's a red Octagon. And I'm like, that is the right answer. You know, And you're not wrong, Right! And it's like, it's a whole different level.
Like she's three. That's a stop sign. No, that's a, that's a red Octagon. So it's, I have to constantly feel like I need to push her and, and, and tell her the truth and explain it all because she gets it, she understands different levels of things and that I think she's developed that from, from Montessori, um, and just making connections, constant connections to things in different ways.
And I just, I'm so impressed by it every single day.
Man, that's wonderful. Yeah, I just did the idea that you're saying, like, we have certain expectations of what a quote two year old or three year old or whatever should be capable of. And it's just, I've been doing this 20 years and I'm just, it's amazing.
So we just can't, these restrictions or these, these, these limits that we put on them, we can't do it..
No, I mean, we, we tell ourselves that we are limitless, like the, the, what humans have done in space and, you know, the monuments we've built and all the crazy things we've done in science.
Why would we limit our children? Why would we put boundaries on any of that? So yeah, let them explore, let them create their own boundaries, you know, just be there as the guardrails to keep them safe.