Montessori Elementary School - Is It Any Good?
So many parents choose Montessori school for their children’s preschool and kindergarten years, but what about Montessori for elementary and beyond?
Thank you to our guest Dawn Cowan for sharing her insights.
If you’d like to contact Dawn, you can email her directly here.
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About Jesse McCarthy
For 20 years, Jesse McCarthy has worked with thousands of children, parents, teachers and administrators — as a principal for infants to 8th graders, an executive with a nationwide group of private schools, an elementary & junior-high teacher, and a parent-and-teacher mentor.
Jesse received his B.A. in psychology from the University of California, Los Angeles (UCLA) and his Montessori teacher's diploma for ages 2.5 to 6+ from Association Montessori Internationale (AMI), the organization founded by Dr. Maria Montessori.
Jesse has spoken on early education and child development at schools around the globe, from Midwest America to the Middle East, as well as at popular organizations in and outside of the Montessori community: from AMI/USA to Twitter. Jesse now heads MontessoriEducation.com and hosts The Montessori Education Podcast.
Transcript: Montessori Elementary School - Is It Any Good?
The educator Dr. Maria Montessori once said, "The child developing harmoniously and the adult improving himself at his side make a very exciting and attractive picture." Welcome to Montessori Education with me, Jesse McCarthy, where we talk raising children and educating students while bettering ourselves right alongside them.
Hey everyone, happy to be with you today. So around 20 years ago in my early days learning about Montessori, I was just so skeptical about it for older children, you can think like elementary and beyond. Now since then things have definitely changed and I wanted to share what I've learned and seen over these years. But instead of me giving my perspective, I decided to bring somebody else on to share.
Dawn Cowan is a super knowledgeable and experienced Montessori elementary educator, who I'll talk very briefly about in a second. But just to give you a sense of what we cover, here are a few of the questions I asked her. What's different about Montessori elementary compared to conventional or traditional school?
How do Montessori elementary teachers or guides get children to work, given in some sense, you know, students are free to choose what they want to do? And are there any downsides to having your child do Montessori through elementary, and maybe even further?
From my perspective, Dawn is a perfect person to answer these questions, as she's kind of experienced it all in Montessori.
So over the last 20 years of her own life, she has taught in Montessori elementary schools and done administration and admissions in Montessori schools. So she's worked with children, teachers, parents, all of it. Interestingly enough, to broaden her perspective, Dawn is now currently working admin in a non Montessori public charter school.
So she's getting outside the bubble, which no doubt has offered her some vivid contrast. And beyond Dawn's professional work with children, she is also a mom. She has two children, both of whom went to Montessori through elementary. Her son actually also completed junior high in Montessori. So given all of Dawn's relevant experience, I think you're going to appreciate her take on Montessori elementary.
But of course, I'll let you judge for yourself. So let's get to it.
Dawn Cowan, thank you so much for coming on the show.
Thank you.
I thought I'd just hop right in. What is something that you've experienced, and this is through all the years that you've been working in Montessori, as just a vivid example of why you think Montessori elementary is, is the way to go.
If you, if you still believe that.
Oh, yeah, absolutely. Um, and it's always hard to pick just one thing, but I'd say the fact that the method is really based on developmental characteristics and all of the flexibility that's in the approach are really the most outstanding elements. Being a teacher, it's a much more fluid experience when your method is
built around what the children and the students are really naturally drawn to be doing. Rather than making some decisions ahead of meeting the children or, you know, experiencing them in the classroom about what they're going to be doing. And then also just the ability to hold space for a child who needs a little bit more time with something or a child that's really super interested in a topic. Is really a fantastic gift in the Montessori classroom.
I'm fortunate enough that I've I've worked a long time. I've got to change. I've had a lot of children grow up. I get to see them as young adults, and I think something that really strikes me is how much their 27 year old selves are just, you know, 20 years advanced of the seven year old that I knew in the classroom.
So, you know, I had a student who spent hours researching all things Japan maps, culture, food, wrote reports, all of the things and she went on to really. Um, develop a professional career in Japanese anime and go to art school. Yeah, another child who wrote story after story after story, sometimes with friends, sometimes on her own, um, went on and, you know, studied similar things through college, ended up earning her PhD and now writes gothic novels.
So I think just creating that space for them to bring their whole selves to the classroom really can have a pretty profound effect on helping them get to know themselves and maybe hopefully finding work that they find passion, that they're passionate about or that they find really interesting.
It's, it's fascinating to me that you raise this sense of, um, seeing where the child's kind of at, and you talk about the self a lot. And I'm just thinking back to my, my time when I was in relatively traditional school, and it is such a different mindset because you're talking about, looking at the child, getting a sense of who they are and kind of developing from that.
Whereas I just remember as a teacher, you would start by just going home and thinking, okay, I'm going to create this lesson for all the children in the classroom who are the same age. And, you know, I taught fourth through eighth grade and, and it was just the fourth graders I teach. And then the fifth graders I teach, but it was like, you thought, oh, I'm going to plan everything ahead of time and know exactly what these kids are going to be interested in.
And I'm just going to talk to them about it. And it's just such a different approach as you're, you're highlighting here with Montessori where you have to actually get to know the children first, get to know what's the developmental stages of these children. So I'm curious, kind of jumping off that. What, what do you think is going on there?
Because I do think there's something fundamental. There's a difference between a traditional school or, you know, a prep school and then Montessori's approach of actually starting, by looking at children, understanding them. Um, what do you think is going on there? And what's going on with this divide between approaches to education?
Well, I think you're really you're just starting in a different place. In a Montessori environment, it really is so student led. And that's not to say that we're not paying a lot of attention to, you know, the essential skills of, like, mathematics and language. And we can, you know, we could talk a lot about that, but those are very important.
But you're starting with this question of, who are you? And how can I open doors to connect you with work that will help you to discover that sense of yourself, um, hopefully foster a wonder about the world, a curiosity about the world. And that is really a different starting place than what do we need this child to do by X point in time, and how do we reverse engineer that?
And then, pace it out over weeks and months to try to get to this, you know, what is really a predetermined end point of the child will know this, so they will be proficient in this skill. And I, you know, I certainly understand as a parent or even as a teacher, how, how great it feels to just like check boxes and say, we did that. We did that. We did that.
And on the Montessori side, you really do have to come with a little more trust and a little bit more belief that the children want to work, that they're interested and that they have a purpose and a calling that they don't know yet. They're discovering that. That's part of the work of childhood.
So, you know, you are both starting in really different places. And then you're also looking at an outcome that, in some ways, is going to be very similar. Hopefully, in both cases, you've got a very capable young adult that knows what they need to know. But I, you know, my bias, of course, is that with the Montessori environment, you also really know yourself.
You know, you've got a sense of who you are and some value attached to that. The child who loves art is just as valuable as the child who really is passionate about mathematics.
Yeah. So I saw this, what you're getting at concretely when I was working in a, you know, again, a relatively traditional school, we had Montessori in the lower end.
Um and then it just became, Again, more content focused, more teacher driven, talking in the front of the class. But I remember we'd have students, a few would come in that just had already had developed a passion. Whether I remember this one girl who was a skater and she would take off days to go ice skating.
I remember the teachers going, well, what is, she's going to miss all this content. And we're, we're going to get behind. And it was like, you, we were treating this ice skating or this other girl loved dancing and she became a dancer, um, later in life, but treating it as, Oh, it's a side thing. The side interests of this child, but what's really important is academics.
It was like school, you know, in my mind in those early days is like school is academics. So that, you said about kind of getting to know that person's self or even the child developing a sense of self, um, because most of us don't know we want to be a dancer or a mathematician or this at seven.
So can you maybe give some concrete examples of how in a Montessori classroom is a child developing, in Montessori Elementary in particular, that sense of who I'm going to be, and how does that relate to actually learning about the world, whether it's math, language, history, any of those. So how are those two connected?
Right. Um, I think that it, it also kind of speaks to another big difference between the structure of each classroom. In the Montessori classroom for the most part, the children are free to work on what they want to work on. It's not a free for all, you know, not at all. There is guidance from the adult.
But by and large, what you're going to see when you are observing in the room is the teacher probably working with a small group of children, giving them a lesson, or maybe working with a few individuals, and then the rest of the class at work. And what that space allows for is just discovery. Kind of to your point, you know, a child who might be very engaged with dance for a few years, may change their mind, and that's okay, you know, they're gonna kind of go in and out of interest, and these interests serve as points of connection to the world. So you give a lesson on something like mammals, you know characteristics of mammal. Mammal has the four chamber heart, the mammal has a body covered by fur, etc. You know that's.
The lesson and hopefully I'm giving it in a much more engaged way. But, um, one example in that, from that lesson that I really remember keenly is three boys taking that lesson and they spent months researching big cats. That was kind of where they went there with their mammal lesson and learned everything they could learn, the work went to writing, to illustrating, because we don't usually use worksheets, so they were making all their own illustrations, they made models, eventually they wrote a short story about big cats. Um, the work kind of evolved and took all these different shapes, and within that was all the skill building, right, they're writing, they're reading, they're accessing different types of resources, they're using their hands, they're building their art skills, and they're all working together. That work of collaboration, they're talking and talking and talking about how big everything's going to be.
And I want to make it black. No, I want to make it pink and we're working that out. So you're getting all of these social skills inside of that. Now, I don't know if any of those boys went on to, you know, have a career with large mammals or not, but they had an experience of really doing something, doing something that they created, that they cared about, that they could throw their whole selves and they knew I wasn't going to take it away one day and say you're suddenly done.
I did guide it. You know, I had to help them find finishing points. Um, and I think that that experience is really. You know, what is so foundational in building that sense of self and saying, I could do it again. I could take on a really big work and be successful. And, and that's, that's kind of powerful.
That's a, that's a sense of like scholarly confidence. And that's certainly something that, I couldn't have assigned that. I couldn't have taken the three of them and said, you three do this. It had to come from their own interest. It came from their excitement about being together. And then with every small success, with every page that they wrote and watching it all come together that just built their excitement for for doing more so, you know, that that structure of the classroom, that freedom of the classroom really is just such a gift in helping students, you know, find those passions and work on those passions. And then, on the teacherly side, you know, I get to see them practicing their skills and, you know, all of, all of those great things. We like to see.
Yeah, that, that makes me think of, cause you had mentioned that, people might see on the outside and like, Oh, well, if you go to traditional school or Montessori, they've reached the same point at like 20 or something.
So he's like, Oh, they know how to read. They know math, that type of thing. But it is interesting because like even a project on these big cats, most of us that went to traditional school and me as a, early relatively traditional school teacher, you would assign big projects, but it was an assignment like it was coming from somewhere else outside.
So it was always like, okay, I got to do this. Maybe I'll pick between what my teacher offers, but it never came from ourselves. And I think what you're highlighting that sense that the child is figuring this out. He's creating things. He's asking questions. He's doing things from his own internal being like you're helping to guide him, but it's from him or her, like the inside, which I don't, it's hard to see because it's kind of so foundational to a human being saying, Oh yeah, I'm going to just decide to research something and go at it, versus, Oh, I came into class, my teacher said, 'This is what you're doing today.' And then what are the repercussions if you have that day in day out for weeks, months, years on end? Do you become somewhat dependent on somebody else telling you what to do versus in Montessori developing this inner, Oh, I can achieve things in life.
So connected to that kind of experience that you're bringing out here, what I do hear from parents is --and this this goes back to your point about parents and some of us not thinking children will just want to work --but I've heard this idea like, well, this all sounds great. Oh, my child. Oh, they want to research this one day and the big cats. But what about the child's like, I'm not interested in math and I'm not going to do any math. I mean, this I'm allowed to choose whatever I want in this classroom. So no math for me. I don't like it. Like, what do you do with a child like that, practically in a Montessori classroom, what does that look like?
I think that it's so rarely that black and white, and I have rarely met an elementary child who just doesn't want to do anything. I think that that's, you know, it's, it's sort of an imaginary test that you're, you're measuring against.
But, um, one of my very about elementary children, just how they are. They're so excited, developmentally, they're so curious about the world. They have a million questions, and it's just so rare to meet a child who truly doesn't want to do anything. So I, you know, not not to push push away or dismiss that question, but I don't think that that child really exists.
And one of the most amazing things about, um, Montessori is how much we really come with that belief. You know, we come with the belief that they want to work. They want to get busy. They want to be engaged. They want to have friends. That these are all natural innate things. These are not things we have to create for the child.
But what we do as teachers or as guides is to figure out where our starting place is, right? So where, where is this child and what can I offer them to entice them into the room? What's going to hook them into coming with me or feeling willing to try a lesson?
Um, without getting too far into the curriculum, but we, we do have these wonderful stories that we tell at the beginning of the year to just, invite wonder. There's no work that necessarily goes with them. We just tell them and we say, Hey, let's think about it. Where did our earth come from? Where did humans come from? Where did writing come from? You know, and these stories are just there to entice and arouse curiosity.
And then the nitty gritty is bringing the child to really fun, interesting lessons and building the relationship with that child. The more that they trust you, the more willing they're going to be when you're like, Oh, Hey, I've got something really wonderful to show you.
And that might be a math lesson, but that math lesson is going to be hopefully if if we're doing our job right, you know, we've picked something that is at their level that they're going to be able to get started with right away. And it's going to start building piece by piece that skill that will bring them farther into that work and build up that work ethic.
And you know, and most of the time, that's exactly how it rolls out. That said, we also, it is important for us all to be trained on learning differences. And if we are seeing a child who say is really avoiding the work of, you know, learning language or learning to read, even if we've done all of our good work, and we've offered a lot of lessons. We've looked at it a lot of different ways. You know, we can't be afraid of advocating for that child and say, This may be a child with dyslexia, and we may need to look at extra support. So I think it's, it's both things, right? You know, you have to advocate for a child who may need a little bit of extra help and be ready to work with that, but also just have a lot of faith that that they're with you, and they really do want to come with you, and they really do want to get busy and learn.
Yeah, so it's so funny listening to you because I've experienced this, you know, vividly with children all the way up to eighth grade who just love learning, particularly in a Montessori environment. But I think parents that have had their own experience in elementary and junior high school as they go up and then, teachers in a relatively traditional school, it's like the exact opposite.
You said, Oh, there's this imaginary child who doesn't want to do anything. And I think the parents that are in a non Montessori environment often are like, they're getting homework with their kids. The kid doesn't want to do the homework. He's complaining about his math teacher or his history or social science teacher.
I don't want to do the work. So it's, it's funny how you see this as an imaginary, almost caricature of an elementary to junior high age child who just doesn't want to do work. They want to. You know, just hang out with friends, play all day or whatnot. Whereas I think a lot of parents that are in that system, they see it as no, that's the norm.
So that's already a pretty pretty stark contrast just in your experience of seeing kids and experiencing them. I I wonder how much again that goes back down to if you're in that system already, you're seeing a different type of child than if you have a more welcoming environment that there's a love of learning like the idea isn't we need to force these children to learn or trick them into learning, but they want to learn, which is, it makes me think of going back to what you started with that, we have to understand child development. So I'm wondering, what do you think some of these more maybe traditional schools or prep schools or do whatever you want schools, what are they getting wrong about children, kind of the nature of human development, that's making them want to put these, you know, these boundaries and everybody does the same activity, and... what do you think is driving that?
Yeah, that, you know, right now I'm working in a, in a public school and I'm working with these kinds of curriculums, so I've, I've had a chance. And one of the reasons I wanted to do the work I'm doing now is to learn more about these curriculums and to better understand how, you know, how a more conventional approach operates.
Um, I think that it's really tricky because public schools can be very data driven, and that data has to come from somewhere, right? It can come from knowledge checks at the end of a chapter. It can come from, you know, standardized testing at the end of the year. But to get that data, you sort of, you have to create a standardized experience that you're measuring against.
Something that you're doing in the Montessori classroom is, you're going to be okay with children having different kinds of experiences. Now, again, I always want to be cautious to say we're not throwing out any kind of focus on, you know, the importance in essential skills, but obviously, with my example before those kids who were researching and spending all that time on big cats were maybe not spending as much time studying a planet, for example, and so the knowledge base is going to be a little bit different, even though both sets of students are probably practicing the same skills And as a teacher, I'm looking at their writing. I'm looking at their reading. I'm reviewing their work. I'm editing their work, and I'm making my own notes, basically collecting my own data about those children and using that more informal type of assessment to make some decisions about who needs which kinds of lessons. Um, but that's not something that I can just turn in a neat package of like, you know, 40 percent of my children know how to spell this kind of set of words in this kind of set of ways. Um, I'm definitely using it and gathering it all of the time. But in a more conventional school, if you want to be able to come out and make really big statements about what everybody knows and how everybody's doing, you kind of have to create this very standardized thing where people are doing the same thing at the same time and kind of earlier to your point about like, you know, since being assigned projects, I've seen that where, you know, they're assigned to make a bridge and they do that at home, but rarely is a collaborative because you're always trying to look at the individual and trying to get that individual assessment piece there and so that becomes a focus.
And. Not always, because I, you know, there are so many wonderful teachers, you know, I, I rarely meet a teacher who is not giving their all to the profession. The work, the work takes a lot and you don't generally get into teaching unless you love it.
But when that becomes the focus, it really does start shaping what you do, as opposed to really just looking at the experience of the individual child and how are they feeling about their work? How, you know, what are they... what would they choose to do in this circumstance? So the resistance often doesn't come from not wanting to learn.
It comes from just having no autonomy and adults are really no different. You know, we all think about how we feel when we're micromanaged and what it does to our motivation, versus when we've got a little bit of space to work on a project and come at it in our own way. Like our motivation can really be very different and the work could be almost exactly the same.
I like that you added that at the end, cause I, I think the parents that I've interacted with over the years, and I think of myself, my pre Montessori days, it's like we, we somehow spiritually or emotionally know something's off in traditional school. But the data's there. And we can say, oh, well, this is the "best school" because these are the grades the kids get, these are the schools they get into. Whereas if you look at a Montessori school, you know, often you're given, we'll just have faith in this process. And, you know, emotionally, we might be like, wow, this is amazing room, but it's still that something inside of us is like, oh, but how do I know? You know, like this, this, this school, this local traditional school, oh, it's got data. So there's that. So I do want to come back to data and grades and tests a little bit later.
Um, but one question before we get to that, that I want to jump into because it comes up a lot is this idea of, um, community in an elementary classroom, or I get a lot of parents that would want to leave in the early days from Montessori because they will, I want my child to be socialized in the kind of real world environment of a traditional public school. And I just had a very specific question where maybe you can expand on is that I started to see that most people, and I think including myself in my early days, you would think of socialization as just kind of interacting with a lot of kids, particularly on the playground and getting to know how you, you know, how do I deal with this girl and that boy.
But I never really heard the question in terms of working together, which you raised, like this idea of collaboration in the work. So socialization always meant kind of, you know, I don't know, going on dates or how do you communicate with friends? It was never about working together with others and then with mixed ages in Montessori.
So how do you see that as a major difference with Montessori and traditional school, just in terms of what people would call socialization or what I'm emphasizing here is working, collaborating on projects, on work with other children?
Yeah, um, well one of I mean one of the developmental characteristics that we acknowledge with the Montessori age elementary kids or all elementary kids Montessori or not is um, their desire to be together. Their 'gregarious instinct' was Montessori's term for it, but that they really are so driven to connect to each other, to work together, to be together. And it, they accomplish a lot through their interactions. They're, they're learning how to be a friend. They're learning how to navigate some of the highs and lows of those friendships.
But all of that, just like any other word, requires space. So when you have a classroom that has a more open format, like a Montessori classroom, they have a lot of time to talk to each other. They're, you know, we're not always asking for quiet. We're not always kind of making, you know, the room doesn't have to be still so that everybody can hear the instruction.
You know, there, there are moments, of course, but, um, by and large, they, they just get so much more practice. Talking to each other. And then, yeah, you add in the collaborative work, you add in the fact that they can choose who they work with, um, and feel attracted to different people at different times, like the older students in a room, do a lot of mentoring of the younger students, um, as well as working together with one another, and it's just, you know, what you would call in a public school, you know, 'time on task', but, um, you can just say that the children need a lot of practice talking to each other, and we offer that to them..
And we also offer it to them around, as you say, work. It doesn't have to just be about the playground or be about time outside of school. And so, in that way, the Montessori environment, probably more closely remember resembles what would be, you know, what you might imagine is an adult workplace where you're collaborating and talking to each other all of the time and really coming with this, with this skill set of how to be together and how to organize a project. Even the structure of the room is set up so that as much as possible, the children don't need the teacher, you know, they can get the supplies they need, they know where the resources are, they can choose a material so they're not always needing to come through this intermediary to to get the next thing.
So, I don't know. Does that, does that kind of answer your question on
the
community of the room?
Yeah, that's helpful. And I, I, I like that you're also raising this idea that they're kind of just, it's almost like chance encounters that, that occur, then lead to something where, and I know today, especially with these tech companies that, you know, they're building their office spaces so that people, you know, have to bump into each other, cause that's when a lot of stuff arises and creative work arises. It's just so wild that we know, we know this again, as adults. That's the type of environment we want. And then we can go and focus, you know, there's an, it's not like in an elementary classroom. There's no focus area where a child can work solo on some project.
Um, but that ability to just chat with people. Just thinking back to my time again, in my early days, the only time kids really had to chat on any topic that would come to their mind is recess or lunch. Because you couldn't just start chatting with your neighbor if you're sitting in your seat, because that's inappropriate.
The teacher's talking or you're supposed to be working. So it's just, it's really when we step back as normal parents or normal people and go, it's kind of crazy. The environment that's set up where you have to be, you know, focus on what the teacher is saying or on what they're telling you to do. In math, then the bell rings, you go to social science, then English.
And there isn't any of that chance kind of encounters that you're talking about. I don't know it becomes jarring when these things are pointed out. Does that actually happen? I'm curious now in your, your role as kind of administrator, when you would talk to parents, maybe do tours, did they see, did they tend to see that jarring contrast when you tour these classrooms, these Montessori classrooms?
Like, whoa, this is really different. Was it a positive jarring? Did the jarring even exist? Like, you know, what was your take when you toured parents and they kind of got a slight sense of the contrast?
Yeah, I mean, I think definitely it stands out, right? When you look into a classroom and you see a group of children mostly working, you know, and there's no obvious adult directing their work.
Um, and so most parents, you know, when I would do tours, They would see all the wonderful things that we've been describing like, yeah, this feels really different. Um, there can be just a sense of relaxation because you're not watching the clock and looking at the time all the time and realizing I only have 20 more minutes of my ELA block to try to get through this lesson.
So it does. Just kind of alleviate some pressure, um, and, you know, pretty quickly you get the follow up question of like, well, how in the world do you make sure that they're doing their work?
You know,
that they're not just over there messing around or talking about other things and... that, that's a good question.
You know, it really is a good question and we've, we've somewhat touched on it, but it does come back to how you set up that community in the room. And the community really, really is a working community. The students know that they're there to work. Many of them have been lucky enough to come from a primary environment.
So this idea of work as, you know, what you do in the classroom. They've lived with for a very long time and then as the teacher, my work is really to do a lot of observation and really make those decisions about, you know, I've noticed this group sat down with their work. They're also kind of catching up about their weekend.
The conversation might be going this way or that way. And how much space am I going to give that, um, before I, I touch him and say, Oh, you know, what's your plan today? You know, tell me a little bit about what, where you're going and then coming back and giving them a chance to get started.
And then at the same time, I'm also really making note about what they're doing. You know, that's part of my work all day as well and reviewing their work and seeing how they're coming along with it. So it's not. It's not going to look exactly the same every day. And I think it's kind of one of those moments for a parent where you have to make a decision about what you want, you know, if you really want a checklist and you want to know they got every single lesson, you can get that.
But there, there is going to be that trade off, which means the time is going to be managed in a very exterior way. You know, that's going to be managed by the curriculum. It's going to be managed by the teacher. Um, and you just don't have the room to give a lot of choice. You know, some of the work examples I've given in this conversation, in no world in a public or a more conventional educational space, could you create the space for that?
Even if those three boys came together and wanted to do that project, there maybe would be 20 minutes at the end of the day, if there was some extra time. But, you know, there just simply isn't the room and the time and the space. So, you know, I would argue that a lot of the magic that comes out of giving children that kind of time and space to work deeply is worth it.
But it is going to be different. It is an alternative to a more conventional approach. And so, you know, a lot of times I'll, I'll spend a time on tours answering more specific questions about where those differences are, how they might show up. And I really do always try to not be obtuse with parents and just say, you know, blindly, like you must trust us and have no questions because that's not really fair either, you know, to try to really provide good information about exactly which lessons, you know, the children are doing and help interpret the environment in a way that you can see all of the really great work that's happening.
All the time.
Yeah. And so you're, you're raising a few words that jump out to me, this relaxation space, time for your child. It's, it's so wild in our culture, I think these go along with kind of like, Oh, we're just hanging out. We're in the forest, you know, just finger painting.
And it's really a shame because you know, the difference when I think about the way that you're speaking is, you know, I'd have children, say a fifth grader in a relatively traditional classroom is getting all A's. And then I've worked with Montessori children in the same, about the same age, that might be quote at the same A level, but one is just so stressed in the relative traditional, I gotta, I gotta get these A's.
And they're just constant stress at home, doing hours of homework to make the grade, um, while the other one is doing the same level of work or even higher, and just feeling like, oh, I'm just going to, I'm coming to school today. It's going to be fun. It's just this, the relaxation you talk about, but I think in our culture, they tend to think you can have one or the other. You're, you're like, I'm grinding it out. I'm going to be at the top. I'm climbing the ladder. You working all the time, stress, or you're relaxed, you're peaceful. You have space, and you're not doing anything with your life. You know, you know what I'm saying? There's this, and until you go into the classroom as kind of these parents touring with you, you can't even fathom that those two can coexist, where you can actually excel and succeed in life and, and really, really excel in all these different areas, um, and actually feel at peace.
That's one of my biggest things I think with Montessori. I'm curious. You know, whether jumping off of that or your own looking at these two different approaches, I don't even know, say two different approaches to say Montessori versus other types of approaches I've seen out there. Um, what stands out for you as just personally, you as a teacher, being in there as a parent with your own children, what stands out as, 'This is why I'm here.'
This is why I, maybe not yourself, since you're experimenting and seeing what else is out there, but for your own children. This is why my children are in an elementary or were in an elementary Montessori versus XYZ. What, what stands out to you?
It's a good question. I, you know, there's so much. And I'm thinking about my children who are now in high school. And I think that one of the things that has really stood out to me is just the work ethic that comes from being in a Montessori classroom. Their ability to get themselves started, to get going, to motivate, you know their their own efforts and just just to be willing to see school as a positive place, you know, and with adolescence, you know, like to start like not missing class or to see their teachers as collaborators, as people who are there to help them that they can ask questions of and trust, you know, want to be there.
I think kind of to your point that seeing school as a hopefully for the most part a safe, positive, engaging space really does carry over to other environments and they're willing, you know, they both brought that type of perspective to their high school. Doesn't mean, of course, they don't have opinions, which, of course, they, they do, or that they're, they're perfect students.
But I think they have a lot of skills to navigate that world and to really know how they work best and what they need. For example, my, my son, he's, he's more of a solo worker. He likes his own space. He likes to work in his room. He likes to really just kind of get away. And my daughter really likes to set up her homework in the middle of the dining area and have a lot of interaction and a lot of connection while she's working through things or try out a sentence with us while she's writing.
So just honoring both of their own individual styles and being able to set up spaces for themselves where they can really do their best work and bring their best selves to, to that, that kind of learning. But I don't know. I think that, you know, that idea, uh, that things have to be hard to be valuable is...
It's, uh, it's challenging. And it's, I know it's challenging for parents, you know, can start to feel competitive. Somebody down the block is in the super advanced math class. And my child's not in the super advanced math class. What does this mean for the future? And to just really try to stay present with your child and collaborate with your child and just take one step at a time.
If you can get there, you know, it really does make the journey so much more enjoyable. And as a teacher, it definitely makes teaching a child more enjoyable. You're really just opening doors and putting the next thing in front of them instead of kind of rushing them through a process, whether or not they're ready to take that next step.
Dawn, I'm so happy I had you on because you're naming a few things that are just and given examples that are very powerful for me and seeing it throughout my life as well. The contrast, but you even the mention of your own children with their styles, you know, one wants to go in the room and really focus versus being this, you know, communicate with other people while she's doing work.
It's just. It's so wild even just bringing it to our culture today. I just, I listen to podcasts where I'll see these talks where it's always like, this is the way you should, should work. This is what you should eat. This is how you should exercise. And it's always like, we've found THE answer for all human beings in this very specific regimented way.
And it's like, they just, there's this pushing off of that. Is it possible that we, we obviously have similarities to some universals with human beings, but there's some differences because like your daughter working in the middle of the place where people chatting, like, for me, that would be insane when I want to do focused work, but she might be comfortable.
So I, it just lights me up because I see this in the Montessori elementary classrooms when children can just choose. And then not like, Oh, the whole day has to be this way. But you know what, I'm feeling like I want to interact with other people now, and then I'm going to go do my solo. Like it's, it's such a free environment. It's, it's amazing. And I love also the additional thing you say, it's hard for people to recognize that work doesn't have to be hard. Like, Oh, I got to push. It's a battle. And I think that's another thing in our culture where it just seems like the more you're battling, the more you're struggling, the more honor and value you, you should think of yourself. And it's like, why? Does life have to be a war?
Right. There's a really big difference between work being challenging and engaging and maybe sometimes, you know, difficult and it being hard, you know, those are, those are different things. And, you know, the children really persevere through solving a lot of problems in their day, whether it's redoing a math problem four times, because they know that they just don't have the right answer.
Often I would stop by and ask if they wanted my help and they, you know, in a very Montessori way, they'd be like, no, just let me, let me try it again, you know, give me the space to try it again. And that's an example of good challenge, right? Like, you know, they're like, we're up for this. We're going to do this where if I just give them the lesson, that's frankly too hard, or they don't have the background knowledge for it, that's going to be hard in a way that feels frustrating and overwhelming.
And so that's, yeah, it's just, it's a very different thing. And, you know, like so many things like the answer is just so much more simple than maybe we want it to be. We, to your point about all the information that's out there. Generally all of these hacks or tools of convenience, um, they work in one situation with one kind of person, but you really just aren't able to get around the fact that, you've got to have a relationship with this child, you know, you've got to collaborate with this child and everybody's an individual.
And so being ready to be flexible and adapt and just kind of go with it, you know, and not get, not get too spun up and everybody, you know, the internet telling you what you should be doing.
Yeah. So maybe jumping off of that, the internet is definitely telling parents that they, they might be missing something if they don't do X, they don't do Y, they don't do Z.
Like you're, you're doing this harm to your child. So just to put it out there straight, is, is there anything missing from Montessori elementary as compared to other programs out there? I mean, generally speaking, more public traditional school, but it could be some other programs. Do you feel that Montessori elementary children come out of their programs and Montessori missing something that other children have that they might've gained if they had not been in Montessori?
I really don't. You know, I think that they're, they're, if they, engaged, if they've worked well in the environment, they're going to come out with all of the skills they need to be successful in their next environment. You know, they're going to have all the language skills, they're going to have math skills, and more importantly, they're going to have motivation, they're going to have work ethic, they're going to have curiosity, and hopefully be able to bring some enthusiasm and excitement to their next school environment.
You might see situations where it's different. If you have a, you know, even a public school or a school that's focused say on outdoor experience, obviously a student who has gone through that, um, that type of program will come out with a lot of experience, you know, doing whatever that program has been doing outdoors.
So whether that's better or worse or different that all comes down to just making decisions. You know, the fact is you get six hours a day with children in the classroom, and you have to make some decisions about where you're going to place that focus, um, you know, certainly Montessori does not have the whole roster of specials in the exact same way, even though most of what happens in these specials classes is wrapped into a Montessori environment.
So things like artwork or music. But I think there's, there's going to be some difference, but I don't think that they're missing anything in terms of their preparation for what comes next.
And given that, what you just said, I do want to make a note or a disclaimer and you can kind of comment if you agree, but we are talking about what you've seen with Montessori as a teacher and administrator in different schools you visit and what I've seen.
So no doubt there are schools out there, maybe saying I'm Montessori elementary and they're doing who knows what so I think as parents we have to do our work to really go in and ensure it's a genuine environment versus just the name Montessori. Because as you were saying, like, I mean, there could be a teacher, a Montessori elementary teacher just loves art and she integrates incredible artwork as specialties or whatnot into the, the school day, whereas another teacher has no interest in art, and they just have not developed themselves to aid children and drawing that out.
So, um, I just want to make that as a disclaimer, because again, this is kind of more abstract and you need to do your own homework. I don't know if you agree with that or you, you know, kind of across the board, it's all good. Or what would you say?
No, certainly. I mean, I think whenever you're looking at a program for your child, it's always best to, you know, do your homework, ask your questions. You can educate yourself on the mission of a certain program, make your own decisions.
And, of course, you know, public schools are different from state to state, district to district, and it stands that Montessori schools can have some differences, too, that are important to look at.
Okay, so a major question that kind of, I think you had raised this and I want to get it out there.
So in talking about are Montessori children missing anything or is there major differences? I know you raised data What about tests? What about grades? And again, that kind of related to what we were just talking about. I know Montessori schools are very different in how they approach this when children get older, let's say the sixth grade or even in junior high. What do you see as the Montessori approach when it comes to grades and tests?
Right? Well, in terms of grades, what, what I've really seen both, in the environment where I'm working now, and then just my own children transitioning into a graded environment is that grades are really about work.
Um, they're about whether or not you're completing work in the classroom, you're turning work into your teachers. Most of the time, if you're doing that, your grades are going to be OK. And Montessori kids often have really great work ethic because they've, they've come through many, many years of just working hard all day long.
And so bringing work ethic to their next environment and engaging in the class, asking questions, being willing to be a part of those classroom discussions. Those are the skills that Montessori kids really bring to graded work, and that goes a long way With regards to testing, I'd start by saying that there really is nothing wrong with a child taking a test, sitting down and, you know, in a way, it's what we would call in Montessori a third period examination of looking at information in a certain kind of context and trying to pull from what, you know, to answer that question. And that's fine. It's what we do with these tests and the stress that we attach to these tests that really turn it into something else. And the other thing to realize is that these tests take a lot of time, you know, schools spend weeks and hours and then additional hours of children who were absent being pulled out to make up these tests. So it really is a very big focus, and a big use of time to administer these tests and especially administer these tests in all these highly secure ways that, you know, to ensure that the data is correct and teachers aren't helping too much.
So where to go with testing, you know, in the younger years, it really, it can be a stressful thing to do, when elementary children are younger. If you're going to do a test, I think it's really important to think about why you're testing. Are you just testing to help the children learn how to test or are you really going to be, um, hyper focused and making some very big decisions based on these results.
Now, fast forward to older children, students taking things like the PSAT or the SAT or just, um, testing in their classrooms, like end of unit tests. Those are skills that, older children, you know, really can get to in an easier way without as much stress, you know, they're older, they're more mature, they're more organized, they're young adults.
Testing in high school is not the same as testing like a seven year old. So, by and large, I don't hear a lot from alumni that they struggled with testing or they struggled with taking these tests. They seem to adapt just fine. You prep for your SAT the same way that you would, anybody would prep for an SAT or a focused kind of experience.
But, you know, I would, I would be honest if I, if I said that everybody comes back and says, I'm a terrible test taker because I went to Montessori school, but that, that just hasn't been my experience. I think that they're, they're able to get their head around it and really just complete the work.
Yeah, and what you're saying kind of jibes with my experience. It's interesting you're saying, they have no trouble with the testing later, and that's been the same from what I've heard. I've also heard that some of these older children leaving Montessori, particularly when they leave for high school, there's an excitement around getting grades and taking tests, which is sort of funny.
Yeah, kind of. Given the opposite of normal traditional school. But I like what you're saying earlier about this testing, as kind of like, maybe it's a unit after that you do, or a weekly book reading, cause I know as an adult, we want to do reviews of what we've learned. Like if I read a book and I really want to retain it, I'm going to go back to what I highlighted, the notes, and go through it. So that can be somewhat of a test for myself, but I think you're raising and highlighting when it becomes a stressful, This is what it's all about. Um, and as I think you noted earlier, as a teacher myself in a relatively traditional program, and then in interacting with so many traditional school teachers, you feel that stress as a teacher, because you're pushed to, well, we want these children to get these grades and get in this school and they can, you know, meet the mark.
So you start teaching to that test. And I think that's when it becomes stressful for the teacher, for the parents, for the child. So I, I think you're highlighting some of the reasons why that is. I really appreciate it.
But let's say, given that there isn't really a lot of grades and testing, particularly in the early years, you do not see the children as missing anything? Just so we can put that out there for the parents.
No, I don't. I don't see that. I mean, as, as I mentioned earlier, I think it is important that we're responsible about each child's journey and we are raising concerns if we really do see a child not picking up a skill, especially something really important, something like learning to read, that's, that's an essential skill that they're going to need for the rest of their lives.
So whether or not that's coming through, you know, some type of reading quiz or test or outside assessment, or your own observations of how a child is doing, you can, you only start missing things when, when you just move on ahead and you don't address those kinds of issues as they come up. And Montessori schools are no different than any other schools, you can count on, you know, 10 to 15 percent of your class, needing some kind of different accommodation, whether it's attention or autism or dyscalculia, dysgraphia, and part of our work really is to educate ourselves about those kinds of needs and figure out how to bring them into the environment.
And when we really need to say, I need some extra help, you know, this is a child who's going to need some additional support and services outside. So, I would say, yeah, for most children that they're going to move through and go on and do fine with their grades, do fine with their tests. A child with dyslexia, language is always going to be something that they're going to have to support, and that will probably show up in test results. It doesn't mean that that child has not worked incredibly hard or developed a number of skills, and in some ways probably understands the language, you know, in a granular way, much more completely than a child who just automatically learns to read, because that child's probably had a lot of support with studying the components of language so that they can decode it.
But it may be that that student's language "test scores" are always going to reflect that struggle. But it's not a pronouncement on all of the amazing work that they're doing and all of the amazing thinking and value that they're going to bring to their next educational environments.
But yeah, Montessori is not going to cure those things. We can just support them as best we can, the same as in any kind of school environment.
Awesome. Super thorough. Thank you. Now I'm thinking we, we've covered a tremendous amount in this time. Is there anything else that you want to get across kind of at the end here that we have not covered that you're like, I need to get this out there to parents?
Or we did pretty well covered what you want. What do you think?
Right. I think that basically what I would say to parents is if you're going to choose an elementary Montessori school, as much as possible to reflect those same goals in the home, you know, to really have a household that supports connection and independence and curiosity and meaningful work.
And to take a similar approach to the collaboration and really bringing that sense of ease to your family life. I, I had a full time job. My husband has a full time job. You know, I, I've really lived it with two young children and what it can feel like at the end of the day. And I know how tempting it is to just say, you know, here's your iPad. I'm going to cook dinner. Let's all go to our corners and come back. And it takes another beat to instead, you know, ask the child to, you know, peel carrots and help you make dinner and really take that space for connection and for working together and for building that relationship. You know, there's obviously a lot of tech in the world, and I guess I'd, I'd offer that this is probably the last moment in your children's life where you're going to have any kind of authority about where technology lives, but to be really mindful about things, just all of the distractions, right?
You know, you're wanting to invite the children into their lives rather than teaching them how to distract themselves from their lives. And those things are going to come, you know, they're going to become adolescents, they're going to want phones. They're going to, you know, all of that stuff is out there, but holding a line and instead really having the same kinds of connections inside of the home as the school that you've chosen to send them to is trying to foster, it's really going to create a much more connected experience. And, as a teacher, I'll just say thank you too for, uh, you know, not not letting them play tons of video games. And then because the Montessori materials will never move as fast as a video game or a piece of educational software.
So just slow down. Enjoy this time with your children. It's a lot of fun. Elementary kids are my favorite people. They're so willing to do most things with you. Um, just put your arms around that and embrace this time and try and take a deep breath even when you're tired at the end of the day and, uh, and really just enjoy your children.
Thanks, Dawn, so much. I know we could probably talk about a million different things than what you've put out there, but I think it'll be good to just end on that and then, uh, leave some more questions, if parents want to write into we'll have some notes on how you can get a hold of Dawn so you can chat.
But thank you again for coming on. I appreciate all your insights. Clearly you've had some major experience with elementary to be able to answer these hard hitting questions. So thank you again for coming on.
Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. I'm excited to hear it.
Yeah. Yeah. No, I'm listening to you speaking. I'm like, oh, this is good stuff. People are going to gain and enjoy, I'm sure. So... I've had fun listening to your
podcast and kind of getting to know it a bit. There's a lot of really great stuff.
Oh, thanks. Thanks for sharing that.